Nathan Gotch, founder of Gotch SEO and true thought leader in the space joins the Niche Pursuits podcast to share valuable tips on keyword research and content creation.

He takes us through his entire journey. Starting with learning SEO back in 2011 building his own sites, to how he got clients, diversifying his income, and what he sees working today.

And Nathan’s insights are important for any site owner to take note of.

His approach to keyword research is centered around driving revenue and providing valuable content to users.

He recommends starting with transactional, bottom of the funnel topics that have high buyer intent or relevance to your core offer in your niche.

And suggests researching keywords by looking at products being sold on platforms like Amazon to determine which ones generate the most money.

If necessary, he recommends using keyword research tools to identify clustering opportunities and build a database of keywords.

And offers a great criteria for prioritizing keywords based on intent, relevance, and other important and sometimes overlooked factors.

From here he recommends creating high-value pages and supporting content at a granular level.

He also emphasizes the importance of having expertise or enthusiasm in the niche you choose for your website.

Nathan also shares a great 80/20 principle he uses. Meaning outside of the 80% targeting SEO traffic, 20% of content can be experimenting with trending keywords and creating link bait assets to attract attention and gain an authoritative advantage.

For existing sites, Nathan advises starting with existing keywords that are already ranking and optimizing them to improve their positions and increase clicks. He even highlights the value of keywords in positions 50 to 100, as they can still provide opportunities for growth and relevance.

He also highlights the significance of external signals, such as high-quality backlinks, in determining the helpfulness of content.

Nathan emphasizes the need for a long-term vision and building a brand rather than just a niche site.

Watch The Interview

Topics Nathan Gotch Covers

• How Nathan got into SEO
• Creating websites to learn SEO
• Getting clients
• Diversifying his income
• Growing his training course
• Publishing helpful content to drive sales
• Tons of keyword research strategies
• Starting with botton of the funnel topics
• Importance of hands-on experience
• Partnering with experts if necessary
• Creating supporting content for high-value pages
• Improving existing content first
• Clustering opportunities
• Competitor analysis
• How he prioritizes keywords
• Effective uses of ChatGPT in keyword research
• Importance of links
• His 80/20 content strategy
• Finding new topics via TikTok
• Tackling new topics ASAP
• Importance of living in your niche
• And a whole lot more value…

Links & Resources

Transcription

Jared: ​All right, welcome back to the niche pursuits podcast. My name is Jared Bauman. And today we’re joined by Nathan Gotch with gotchseo. com. Welcome, Nathan. 

Nathan: Thank you so much for having me. 

Jared: It is great to have you. You have been someone that I’ve followed for quite a long time in this industry. You’ve been doing SEO.

You’ve been publishing a lot of SEO content for quite a long time. And we’re going to be talking all about it. I, I tell you, I’ve been looking forward to this one. I’m going to hit you with some, uh, hopefully not too tough questions, but I’m looking forward to getting some of your, your insights. But how about you, um, before we get into it, maybe bring us up to speed on, on who you are, give us some background.

Nathan: Sure. Yeah. So I, uh, discovered SEO in 2011. Um, and I discovered it because I had started a baseball pitching blog and I had no clue how to get traffic to it. So I went to Google and, you know, actually, well, actually reverse this. I started the blog and I tried a bunch of stuff. I create all this content. I had no clue what I was doing.

Um, and nothing was working, right? So I did this for a few months and I went back to Google and I said, how do I, how do I get traffic to my block? Uh, and come to find out, you know, there were a few ways, obviously you could pay for traffic. That was one option. But then there was this one option that was, Hey, you can actually get it for free from Google.

And I was like, wow, that works perfect for me because I’m a broke college student. I can’t pay for anything. So. This is the perfect option. Um, and so I, you know, started everything I would learn. I’d go and implement on this baseball pitching blog. And I would just, I just kept learning, just learning and learning.

I was like, Oh, that worked. That worked. And then all of a sudden I started getting traffic. I started making money from AdSense. I’d like the first actual real money I made online, I was like, Whoa, like people are clicking on things. This is great. And then I made my first affiliate sale and this was like.

I think it was December or January, uh, kind of 2011, 2012, I made this first affiliate sale through ClickBank and I was selling a baseball pitching program. It was called, uh, it’s actually, I think it’s still around actually, 3X Velocity is the name of the program. Um, and I made 47 commission and I was like, Oh my gosh, this is the greatest thing that’s ever happened.

Um, and then I, you know, at the time. My plan when I was going into my senior year was I was going to be a lawyer. So at least that’s what my family thought I was going to do. So, but in my mind. I was like, no, like this is what I want to do. Cause I was just like, when I, when I saw that money come in, I was like, this is incredible.

I love this. Um, and so I started really doubling down on just learning more SEO and just investing in the same website. Um, and I, it got to keep kept growing, kept growing. Um, and then I was like, man, I just love this SEO stuff. Like I just came really obsessed with it. So then I kind of had this, I didn’t come up with this idea.

I was following, um, I don’t know if you know at the time, Alex Becker, uh, was someone who I was following in those days. Um, despite what you think about him, anyone, what they think about him, but, uh, he really helped me discover that you could sell SEO services to businesses. Right. And that was something I didn’t really even know was like a thing.

And I was like, wow, that sounds pretty, pretty cool. Like I could definitely do that because I know how to do SEO. And so for me, I started creating websites just to refine my SEO skills. I, I always tell people this are like, that’s so weird, but I wasn’t really doing it to make money. I was literally doing it just because like I would want to just keep testing myself and keep seeing if I could do it.

So I created, you know, undercounter ice maker reviews, TRX reviews, Bowflex reviews. Uh, and I learned a lot in that process. Uh, one funny thing is when I created BowflexReviewsHQ. com, um, that one, uh, I was, I was really cooking with that one. I was making all kinds of affiliate sales through, uh, through the Bowflex affiliate program.

And I was doing super well and then one day I get an email from Bowflex like, Hey, uh, by the way, you can’t use our name in your domain. And I was like, Oh, okay. So that killed that project pretty quickly. Um, and then I learned a valuable lesson, but for me, it was just, I was just obsessed with creating these sites.

And back then. It was much easier. Like, I wouldn’t do the same thing I did back then now because SEO takes so much longer to see outcomes. Yeah. But at that time, I could put a site up, hit it with some, you know, PBNs or whatever else I was using at the time and it, it would, it would go right. Um, those days are not, uh, that’s not the way I, pre penguin.

Correct. Yeah. So, um, and so that, that was kind of the way I did SEO for a long time was kind of the gray hat kind of way of doing things. Um, and then, uh, in 2013, I was, I graduated in 2012 and then from 2012 to 2013, I was just working a security job and it was horrible. I hated it. And every single second that I was working that job, I was thinking about SEO.

I was thinking about my projects. It was all I would ever think about. So every like waking moment that I had that was not working the traditional job, I was working on my projects. Um, it’s quite obsessive, honestly, it was pretty crazy what I was doing. I was working like 16, 17 hour days just to be able to work on my projects.

But I was like, I’m going to make these sacrifices now because I see a vision of me making money with SEO. Like I just knew I could do it. Um, so then in 2013, I actually got laid off from that security job and I had to make a decision. I was like, am I going to like stay here in L or stay in LA? Try to get hired by an SEO company, um, or I can move to St.

Louis and be with my wife. She was my girlfriend at the time. Um, and so I made the decision to pack my stuff up, didn’t have a lot of stuff. And I drove to St. Louis. And my goal was that I was going to get hired by an SEO company over here. You know, SEO company, digital marketing company. It really didn’t matter to me.

I just wanted to get hired in general to do SEO. So I literally applied to every single job that existed. Like literally every single thing that I could find. Um, and I got one call, I’m sorry, I got one response and I got one interview and I did not get the job. So I had moved over here, I had no job, I had no clients, and I had a credit card with a 500 limit.

So I was like, what do I do? Uh, and so I, I just decided, I’m like, you know, I got to go all in on this then. I got to start, I got to start getting clients. Like I just have to do this. Um. And it’s not, I was making okay money with my other sites, like it was fine, but I, that was never really my intention with those.

My intention was to build an SEO business. Um, and so I just, you know, when your back’s kind of up against the wall, you tend to really, uh, do things, uh, it’s pretty crazy what happens. So I, I just started going on Craigslist, uh, I would respond to gigs every single day. I would just set a target. I’m going to respond to 10, 20 gigs, as many as I can.

Um, and then I started getting clients from Craigslist like crazy, like it’s such a weird thinking back then that I was, that was happening, but I was literally getting clients from Craigslist and then I would respond to questions on Quora. Um, I got clients from that doing that. People would reach out to me, Hey, I saw your response on Quora and you know, got my first couple of clients from doing that.

And then at the same time I was building up an actual SEO foundation, which you kind of mentioned here is, you know, my brand gotch SEO. I was building that up, uh, but I was more focused on ranking for local based keywords. So that would be like, uh, like Santa Monica SEO company because I was still in LA when I started thinking about that.

funny thing is if you look up Santa Monica SEO company, I’m still there. So that was in 2014. I made that page and it’s funny on the page. I’m like, Hey, by the way, I’m not in Santa Monica. I’m actually in St. Louis, but I created this page just to prove that I’m good at this. So it’s like literally the coffee.

Yeah. So, um, so I have that page and then I, and then I really focused in on St. Louis. Um, and I, I just wanted to become like, The go to guy in St. Louis for SEO. Um, and so to this day I still rank for St. Louis SEO and keywords that are related to that. And that ended up becoming really the vehicle of almost all of my business was just straight SEO, ironically.

Um, so yeah, that was kind of how I transitioned into this. So it’s a 

Jared: perfect transition into today because I mean, ranking in general is hard, you know, ranking for different keywords is hard. We talk to people every week here on the podcast who are. trying to and succeeding at ranking for different things, but ranking for SEO content is, in theory, the hardest because you’re up against the best of the best.

You’re up against the ones who are, who are, who are, who know what they’re doing, right? A lot of times, you can win in the SERPs because you know how to rank better than all the competitors. But in SEO, in other words, in ranking for SEO content, more than likely that’s not the case. As soon as a… Uh, an untapped keyword goes dis gets discovered, it’s probably gonna be, uh, swooped down upon and, and so forth and so on.

Let’s talk today about where your agency and your online website is at just to give people a framework and I have a lot of questions that we can spin into after 

Nathan: that. Yeah, I mean, um, so my business is very different now than it was when I was in the early stages. So from like 2013 to 2016, I was all agency.

Like I only did client work. I didn’t do anything else. Um, and. That was, I learned a lot in that process, but in 2016, I realized I’m like, all right. I don’t think I can do client work forever. Like, I just made that kind of conclusion. I’m like, I just don’t think I can do this for the rest of my life. So, I was like, so what else could I do?

Um, and that’s when I decided like, I’m going to create a training course. You know, some sort of course that I knew that that was a good way to, um, diversify your revenue streams. So, I did that. I created, that was when I launched the first version of Gotcha SEO Academy was in 2016. Uh, and it was a terrible, terrible, terrible thing.

Um, and, uh, and I was so deathly afraid of being on video. I just talked to someone the other day about this, but, uh, just so people know, like, I was so afraid to be on video that I, I wrote out all of my lessons. Like I wrote them text version and I put them into a platform and like that was the course. So basically you’re paying for like a glorified database of articles.

Um, yes. Yes, essentially. An ebook with an awkward talking head. Yes, correct. So there was no video and like, it was just bad. Yeah. So, um, so anyway, I, after that I was like, okay, I got to get over myself. I got to get on video. I got to get over my fear. So then I, I did that, but I, I took baby steps. I didn’t go to like recording like this, like talking head, uh, I just went into recording my screen.

So I just would go through the process, you know, okay, here’s how you do an audit with a screaming frog. And here’s how you find. I would go through the process, um, my delivery is not what it is today. It was very awkward. It was very fragmented. It was different. Right? It just wasn’t. I’ve progressed a lot since then.

Um, but that’s because I’ve recorded hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of videos since then. And, um, it’s crazy what happens is if you want to get better at something, the more you do it, usually you get a little bit better at it. It’s a pretty crazy thing that happens. I’ve noticed. Um, so, so anyway, that was kind of, you know, leading up to today, basically the way my business is structured is it’s heavily my academy.

My academy is like the biggest part of my business now, just overtaking everything. Um, and I still do client work to stay, you know, keep my hands dirty. But for me, Like I’m doing SEO with my own projects. I’m always doing SEO just in general. So I’m always in the weeds I’m always in the dirt and I have to be right I have to be in the dirt to be able to deliver the value For my students in the Academy.

So So these days it’s it’s really focused on the Academy and as far as my brand You know, I my brand is just content right that that’s what I do. I just I try to create I try to give So much, so many results in advance that people say, okay, that really helped me. And I think he could probably help me more if I found out his, his full process, right?

So for me, I just use the Frank Kern model, you know, give results in advance and then people want to work with you. That’s what I try to do. And like, whenever I, whenever I feel stuck in my business, I’m like, ah, something doesn’t feel right. I always go back to that. I’m like, okay, well, I’m probably not giving enough results in advance.

So then I start thinking about how can I create content that is just purely designed to help people, right? If they make it to the end of my video, the 10 minute video at the end, I might say, Hey, by the way, I have an SEO training program, but that’s, you know, 0. 001 percent of what I give, right? So, um, so for me, it’s all about content, right?

That’s literally all I do. I just create content. I try to build, uh, you know, try to get people to know, like, and trust me. So then when they come into my world. We’re not having to sell them. There’s no sales. It’s just, hey, I know Nathan knows how to do this based on what he’s already given me, and I would like to enroll.

That’s the goal, right? So, yeah. Well, you say 

Jared: you’re in the dirt. If I were, uh, say, knowledgeable about SEO, if I did SEO on my side project, what would be something that you would share with me that I would be a little bit surprised to hear? Um, about SEO that, that kind of comes from you kind of being on the ground, being in the dirt, rolling around in the 

Nathan: mud.

Oh man. So many. So what, what part do we want to focus on? I mean, there’s so much there. I mean, uh, yeah, I mean, 

Jared: you tell me which way you want to go. Yeah. It’s open ended on purpose though. And I mean, yeah, if you’re in the dirt, like let’s, let’s get 

Nathan: dirty. Right. Yeah. So, I mean, I, my mind just goes to the process.

Right. And I think about all the components of the process. So. So for me, like, it’s more for like, I think about where do people, where are the missteps in strategy? Where are the missteps in process? Um, and, and so I know your audience is more kind of building niche sites, building authority sites. Um, so we’ll all kind of tailor what I’m about to say towards that.

Um, so like if you’re building a content site. And your objective is to monetize it through display or affiliate, maybe drop shipping, whatever it is, let’s just assume it’s, you don’t have a product, like, let’s assume you’re just going to do it through, um, it’s a display or affiliate. Well, one thing I see is, um, and you know, there’s a lot of different opinions out there, right?

Content strategy. Um, but for me, believe it or not, like when it comes to keyword research, okay, my strategy is actually pretty much the same no matter the type of business. Okay. So whether it’s a business that doesn’t even sell a product and it’s a, let’s say an authority site or a business that’s a SAS company and they actually have a product to sell, right?

It’s the same because for me, what I’m thinking about is what are the most valuable keywords in this industry? Right. I’m thinking about that. So what, what, what are the, what are the, you know, what are those money keywords as people like to say? Right. And so for me, what I’m thinking about is like, okay, if we’re going to build this keyword database, I want to start down here at the bottom of the funnel, right?

I want to, I want to start with the keywords that I know are extremely lucrative. And then I want to build my whole strategy around improving those. And what people tend to do a misstep is they enter an industry. Let’s say it’s, um, Okay. Say it’s undercounter ice makers. Let’s choose something pretty, a pretty horrible, boring industry.

Okay? We’ll do… You know, we reference 

Jared: a lot of analogies here. That’s a new one. So good. We’ll roll with that one. I’m trying to get a visual right now for a very specific product that’s as, as 

Nathan: boring as ever. Yes. So I’m going, I’m going as boring as possible so we can get a good example. Uh, undercounter ice maker.

Alright, so to look at transactional keywords and for undercounter ice makers, the smartest thing to do is to go to Amazon and find the products that are being sold, right? If you’re going to do affiliates. So for me, I’d be thinking about, okay, what are the, what are the affiliate driven pages that I can create?

First, right? I want to build those first and I, people will say, well, but what about the ratio between it? Nonsense. There’s, there’s no, there’s no proof that that’s actually a thing. There’s no proof that there’s some sort of magical ratio that Google’s going to say, Oh, it’s 80 percent informational and 20 percent commercial.

And no, it just isn’t a thing. That’s just made up by SEOs who are creating things. Um, but at the end of the day, we want to focus on the keywords that are going to drive the actual revenue. Um, and the worst thing that you can do is Build your whole strategy around traffic. A lot of people get so obsessed, they go into, they go into Ahrefs and they say, Ooh, okay, look, there’s a undercounter ice maker memes.

That looks like a great keyword. It gets 50, 000 searches a month, right? Oh man, that’s going to, that’s going to juice it. Um, and. And you have to remember that it’s low competition for a reason, number one, and number two, it’s not, it’s, it’s not going to bring the right traffic into your website and traffic is all relative.

It is not, it is just a number, right? And so I always like to use the example, like you could take that example of undercounter ice maker, memes or puns or some, you know, ridiculous keyword. I’m not saying they don’t have any value, but just as far as. Uh, you take that keyword, which gets 50, 000 searches a month, isn’t super competitive, could drive you a ton of traffic versus a St.

Louis car accident lawyer that gets a hundred searches a month. Okay. When you compare the value of those keywords, it’s astronomically different. Right. So like one person who converts out of that hundred searches for a car accident where it could be worth 10, 000 50, 000 potentially even a million dollars in some cases, right?

So and the equivalent of traffic that’s from low quality keywords You would need an ungodly amount of traffic Just to match that same, you know, type of value, right? So for me, I’m not, I really don’t think about traffic. I think about how can I, how can I dominate this industry? From the bottom and work my way up so I don’t go up like if I find if I find a keyword Let’s say it’s I don’t know.

I don’t know the name of undercounter ice makers at this point But let’s say it’s blue undercounter ice makers, right? Okay, like blue blue diamond undercounter ice makers All right, so I would build my core asset like my review now Personally, this is just a kind of a philosophical thing. I don’t If I’m building a site, I am not going to go and build a site where I can’t actually try the product or have someone who has some sort of first hand experience with that product.

So, like, in the case of Undercounter Ice Makers, They’re very high ticket, right? So I can’t just go to Amazon and purchase like 20 of them, right? Like that’s a real problem. It’s a serious, there’s a serious… You have to 

Jared: install it. You have to… Yes. You can’t just plug it in and 

Nathan: use it. No. So there’s issues with that as far as what I would do as far as niche selection.

I wouldn’t pick that unless… I had someone who was some sort of geek about undercounter rights makers that I could partner with and they could become the subject matter expert and I could dictate the SEO strategy. Right. And I think a lot of people like neglect that they’re like, cause I think sometimes we get so wrapped up on how much money we’re going to make.

And we forget that like, if you go 50 50 with someone, you could have that subject matter expert who, who is really the geek who for some reason loves undercounter ice makers, like let them, let them do the strat, like let them do the content and you, you just help, you know, facilitate the strategy. 

Jared: To that point, a plumber who, you know, spends his, uh, days installing these different things and actually knows a lot about the ergonomics of it, but has no interest in starting a website about it because that’s not his skill set or her 

Nathan: skill set.

Exactly. So, so there’s, there’s a lot of value in thinking in that way, like who’s someone I could partner with, right? To be that person. And there’s a lot of people who will do it. Like you’d be surprised. So for me, I think about the keyword side a lot because keywords are everything and I think I see so many people, um, they, they, they invest all this effort into these informational keywords that just don’t Are not going to produce anything.

Right. And I know there’s, there’s the whole theory going around like, Oh, well, we got to build topic authority. Right. That’s, that’s so important. I agree with that, by the way, I agree about building topic authority, but I think the way that people approach it, like, okay, I’m just going to blanket every topic and not even consider the quality of that content, not consider the intent of that, not considering how that operates within the funnel structure.

Right. Right. So, you know, not, you know, just, just creating random stuff as a way to build topic authority, uh, is not what I personally do. What I like to do is I like to build topic authority at a really granular level. So for example, let’s say, uh, on my website, I’m targeting keyword research services.

Okay. It’s a investigative intent based keyword, right? So someone searching that. They don’t really know who they’re going to work with. They haven’t made a decision yet. They’re looking for brands. They’re trying to get an idea. So they’re, you’re going to, you’re going to find a lot of list posts in this case.

Uh, and so the objective of that content is to, is show them who the vendors are, the best vendors for that, you know, that particular service. Um, so I actually have a post that I did on this on gotcha SEO, where I actually went and I purchased 11 different keyword research services. Like I literally went.

Fiverr, Upwork, uh, ones on Google, like all of them, and I created this, this case study about the different ones. I did the top three. Um, so that particular example, the reason I’m bringing it up is because when I started to look at that page and how it was performing, it had dropped some spots and I was like, Ooh, I wonder why I dropped.

Um, and I, as when I did my investigation. Um, I discovered that on my site, I don’t talk about keyword research at all. Like that is the only page that talks about keyword research. So yes. Keyword research is relevant within the broader context of SEO. Yes, it is relevant on that front. But it’s, that’s still a far gap between SEO and keyword research services.

There’s a lot of stuff that goes on by the time you get to keyword research services, right? So, the way that I can build topic authority in that isolated scenario is thinking about what are some of the supporting ideas I can build around keyword research services, right? So obviously, How to do keyword research for SEO, right?

Something more informational in nature. Uh, what are the keyword research, best keyword research tools, right? That’s another thing that I should, I should dig into. Uh, and then on top of it, I can start to get real granular and start to have dedicated review pages specific to the vendors that offer keyword research services.

The types of tools that are offered have dedicated pages for each of those and you start to, you start to, uh, you know, uh, peel that onion, right? And it just, there’s so much opportunity, just a one little isolated cluster. So for me, that’s why I love to focus on, you know, I find that keyword or that page it’s that is really been built and to think about what, how can I build around that?

Right? And that’s where I go. I get really granular so we can dig into a lot of different stuff, but that’s kind of where my mind goes personally. So several questions 

Jared: that come out of that. Let’s start with the idea of focusing on keywords to target, not by search volume, not all keywords are created the same just because it has high search volume doesn’t mean it’s going to have the business impact and also not targeting by competitiveness.

You kind of said, Hey, low competition keywords. That’s one thing, but you start by focusing on the, the, the art, the keywords that have the most revenue potential, you just briefly mentioned going to Amazon, but like, how would someone actually research that? How would someone actually get into the details of going like, Hey, let’s say I’m making a website about.

Under cabinet ice makers, how do I know which ones do generate the most money? 

Nathan: Yes. Very good question. So, so for me, when my keyword research process and I’m, I’m speaking in the context of working with clients, right? So like when I have a client come to me or a campaign that I’m starting, like there’s really only two scenarios when it comes to keyword research.

Number one, they have existing keywords, which means they have keywords that are already ranking from position one to 100. Okay. There’s stuff that already exists. The other option is like you mentioned, completely fresh, brand new. They don’t rank for anything. Okay. So the reason I bring that up is because it’s, it really does dictate kind of how the flow of the keyword research will go.

Um, and so I’ll, I’ll, I’ll touch on the existing first. So like, let’s say you, cause I know you’ll have some people listening to this that have a websites already, they’re, they’re already got some stuff cooking. Um, so what I would do on in that example is I focus in on the existing keywords first before I even think about going after new keywords.

And the reason for that is because. What happens is most websites are already sitting on a goldmine of opportunity, right? So from keywords from positions two to 15, like I love those keywords. Those are the best keywords. Okay. Because what I do is I go, okay, beautiful. We’ve got a keyword here that’s ranking number two.

Okay. I know statistically by most studies that if we go from number two to number one, that’s a hundred percent increase in clicks because roughly most, most studies say it’s roughly 30 percent CTR at position one. 15 percent CTR at position two and then it’s like nine and then progressively gets worse, right?

So people don’t realize like going one position is a hundred percent more clicks. Like that’s a huge amount of difference. So for me, I, I live there. I don’t go anywhere else until I get all that squared away. Right. Um, and there’s so much opportunity to improve and you, and usually the funny thing is the levers that you have to pull to go from number two to number one, aren’t.

Aren’t that big usually sometimes it’s just some slight adjustments on the page itself. Sometimes it’s sometimes you will have to build some more topic support around that idea like I mentioned. Uh, other times it’s just acquiring more links to that page. Um, and then there, there’s a variety of levers, but it’s much easier than building an entire brand new page from scratch.

And I see so many SEO campaigns, they start and they’re like, okay, so what are going to be the a hundred new assets we’re going to create? I’m like a hundred new assets we’re sitting, we’re already sitting on, we’re sitting on money right now. We don’t need to create any new assets. We need to, we need to focus in on what we have here.

Um, so for me, that’s why I always start there because the opportunity is so huge, uh, as far as. increasing traffic, right? I haven’t mentioned obviously how I select keywords and I’ll talk about that in a second, right? Because there’s a lot that goes into that, how I decide what keywords to go after. But as far as like kind of putting these keywords into buckets, uh, low hanging fruits, two to 15.

Uh, keywords from 16 to 50 I call just existing keywords. Also very valuable bucket of keywords that you, you know, typically if they’re in say page two or three, usually there’s a lack of authority. There’s some sort of thing that’s holding it back. Right. Um, now this is my, one of my favorite parts, which a lot of people don’t talk about is actually positions 50 to 100.

Now most people see those and like, Oh, those. Not even going to spend my time with those, waste of time. Believe it or not, there’s so much opportunity in that section. And what I do is so like, let’s say, um, keyword research services, I’ll go, you continue with that example. Okay. Let’s say that keywords ranking number three for me, that page is ranking number three for that keyword.

But then I go to the, you know, number 67 and there’s some keyword that’s not even close as far as relevance to that core idea. But what happens is Google is telling me that there is some relevance there, right? Because that page would not be ranking if there wasn’t some type of relevance. So Google’s actually revealing a lot to me and I’m saying, ah, I see.

There’s something relevant here, which means in my eyes, if the, if the intent is a mismatch, right? So if it’s keyword research verse, uh, let’s say keyword research tools, that’s an intent mismatch. I know Google has now told me, uh, not, it’s not like Google called me up and told me, but the algorithm has told me, yes, that would be great.

Um, but the, the algorithm has told me that I need to create a dedicated asset to support that keyword. So I call those clustering opportunities because what happens is you find all these opportunities that now can build support around the first idea that we were talking about, right? So that’s why I, I obsess about these existing keywords because there’s so much you can do just with that alone.

Um, and then as we mentioned before, as far as a new website. Um, it, it’s honestly pretty easy, uh, as far as how you build that initial keyword database. Um, doesn’t matter which tool you prefer, whether it’s Ahrefs or SEMrush, it’s just a matter of preference. Right? So for me, I use Ahrefs. It’s not because I believe that Ahrefs is like superior to SEMrush in any way.

I think they’re, they’re pretty apples to apples, uh, but it’s more just cause it’s what I’ve used for so long, right? I’ve just, I’ve just used it for a very long time and maybe I’m resistant to change. I don’t know. I’m just used to using it. So for me, what I do when I’m building a new database is in the, in the case of Ahrefs, I just go right into the keyword explorer and I start really broad.

Okay. So if it’s, let’s say SEO, cause it’s just the easiest thing to talk about right now. I would just put SEO in there. Okay. Just put SEO very broadly. And then I’m going to look, and I’m actually not going to look at the keywords. What I’m going to do is I’m going to go and look at the websites that have captured the most traffic.

As a whole in this particular vertical, and what I’m going to do is I’m going to go there and I’m going to start to extract their ideas from what they’ve already ranked for, uh, and so that’s where I like to begin now, as far as, as far as like building that, that’s kind of phase one is building the database, right?

You’re building the database of keywords. You’re not too concerned about. Um, qualification or prioritization of those keywords at that point. I don’t, I don’t recommend getting into it at that early of a stage. I recommend just building a big database and then we get into the process of, of, of narrowing that down.

Now that’s where the magic happens. So I don’t know how much time we can have here, but this, that’s like, that’s my, uh, that’s real. The real fun happens because. For me, it’s going to be very dependent on the business model. So like if it’s a, um, if it’s a, let’s say it’s a SAS company that sells their own product.

Um, what I do is I use two mechanisms. These are the most important mechanisms in the process. So number one is intent. So what is the intent of that keyword? So, um, there’s a lot of debate on the different types of intent and I agree there’s many different versions of intent. Um, but at a high level, there’s basically only a couple of categories of intent, right?

Um, so. At the top, we have informational intent. What is SEO? Okay. Very, very obvious. What is SEO? Then we go deeper down it. Now we’re into, uh, you could, you could argue is more investigative intent. Okay. That might be like best SEO tools. Okay. Now we’re getting, we’re getting somewhere starting to get kind of deeper into that funnel.

Next one we could argue would be maybe in that comparison intent category. So because when someone has, um, ended up on best SEO tools, what they’re going to discover is now they’re brand aware. So they’re aware that there’s Ahrefs, there’s aware, they’re aware that there’s SEMrush, um, you know, they’re aware that there’s Longtail Pro, which I know Spencer, uh, you know, so the different, the different options, um, and, and what that will lead them into a search that might be like, Semrush versus Ahrefs, right?

So now they’re in a comparison. It doesn’t mean that they’re ready to buy yet. It just means that now they’re in the comparison stage. Uh, and then finally, let’s say they like Semrush, they search Semrush coupon code, right? Or maybe they might do Semrush review next and then maybe Semrush coupon code. Now you know at this point, it’s pretty much a done deal.

Right. So for me, the reason I think about that is because I want to prioritize SEMrush coupon code much higher than I want to prioritize what is SEO. It’s not that what is SEO is a bad keyword. It’s just that where are my priorities going to be right. And it doesn’t make sense to go after these broad informational queries if we haven’t handled the other parts of the funnel yet where the money is made.

So for me and my process. I assign a point, a point score to intent. So if it’s, if it’s transactional, it gets a higher score. If it’s informational, it gets a lower score. That’s kind of phase one. Phase two is looking at the relevance of the keyword. Okay. And also go going back to the context of like, if you’re running an affiliate site, you would assign a higher score to something that’s more investigative in nature, right?

Or something that’s more transactional in nature. So like, you know, best baseball cleats. Okay. That’s going to get a higher score than just. What are baseball cleats, right? Because naturally that one has a higher probability of actually producing income. Um, so then the next one is relevance. Okay. And this is really important.

Like I used to really just basically focus on intent and a few, and a few other metrics, but then I added this relevance component. Um, and this is important because you want to know what the relevance of that keyword is to what your core offer is. Right. So obviously it’s easy when you sell a product, you can basically say like, I sell SEO training.

So anything that’s related to SEO training. Get a high score, right? I need to be ranking for that stuff. But if it’s like best SEO tools, okay, it’s in the same like world, but it’s not a, like someone’s not going to search best SEO tools and sign up for my training, right? That’s a far gap. That’s a far bridge to, to cross to get there.

So it gets a lower score. Someone searches what is SEO? They’re way too far in the journey. To end up to buy my big investment SEO program, right? So having those two mechanisms in place will help you really identify the keywords that are really valuable, right? So those are really important. And then outside of that, then you want to start to get into the more quantifiable data points.

Obviously looking at, Uh, the search volume is a good thing to look at. Um, looking at the KD is another thing we want to look at, right? Which is the overall, uh, how competitive is as far as links hitting the competitor pages that are ranking specifically. Next one would be looking at the overall strength of the domains that are ranking for that keyword, which is another thing you can look at in Ahrefs as well.

Um, I like to look at both those mechanisms and going back to what we talked about earlier, like missteps. Ahrefs. That’s a huge misstep I see very often people will see. Oh, wow. It’s got zero KD. This looks awesome I’m gonna go after it and they neglect the fact that every single website that’s ranking has a dr90 So that’s not good because you can’t overcome that many 

Jared: backlinks to rank as a 

Nathan: dr90 Right.

Exactly. So, um, so, so that’s looking at authorities really important, like so important. Like if I see, if I basically when I’m trying to identify a keyword, I want to see weaknesses in the SERP. Okay, so a weakness in the SERP would be looking at seeing sites that are of similar authority of the site that we’re trying to rank, right?

So like if our site’s a DR 20, I want to see other DR 20s, DR 30s in there. If I don’t see any of that and it’s all DR 60 and above, I’m going to be like, This is going to be tough. Like we’re going to have to really have the best page with the most links going to it to really make a dent here. And it’s going to be a much bigger investment to make that dent.

Right. Um, so for me, it’s not just a matter of like, what’s the best keyword. It’s also a matter of like resource allocation too, um, because links are a big cost, right? They’re, they’re a big investment. And also depending on how competitive it is. Um, and the other part is on the content side too. So if I analyze the top 10 results and I see like, everyone’s a killer, right?

Everyone’s got subject matter expertise. Everyone’s got extreme nuance as far as their content. They’ve got like, they’ve got it going right there. We’re talking a plus type of content with a plus level players. I’m going to be like, yikes, this is going to be tough. Right? Um, and so that’s what I’m looking at is like these different variables.

And then eventually by the end of this. I have a score calculated based on all those variables and then I can say, okay, these are the best keywords. Right. But I’ve looked at each of those, those variables. The other one I will look at too, by the way, is a cost per click as well. Um, and I do like cost per click just because it does signal transactional value.

So that’s also gives me ability to filter even further. So, um, might seem pretty psychotic, my process, but I’m telling you the reason I, I’m so crazy about it is that I’ve made so many mistakes, right? I’ve, I’ve, I’ve wasted my time and effort and money on keywords. It just didn’t do anything. All they did was juice my, my, my, my charts, right?

My charts look nice, but my revenue stayed the same and I just don’t play those games anymore. So anyway, I know there’s a lot to unpack there, but, um, but yeah. 

Jared: Well, I have a, I have a couple of nuanced questions for you. So let me dive into some of these. Because I think there’s some value if, if I could, um, if I could get some more detail for everyone listening about some of these things here.

So going back, you talked about looking at competitors or you talked about looking at the big players in a space, right? And this would apply if you already have a site that’s targeting things, you already have content, or even if you’re just looking at maybe validating the space, but you talked about going and looking at.

The big players in the space and extracting what they’re writing about and what they’re ranking for. Can you dive a little bit deeper into that because I think that that can be difficult sometimes you go look at all the Keywords they rank for but that doesn’t necessarily tell you what Topics to target.

You go look at all the pages they rank for, but that doesn’t necessarily tell you what things are important to target first. So how are you extracting the value that each individual player is bringing to the table in a niche of sorts? 

Nathan: Yeah. So for me, I’m always, I really want to find the websites that are, are hyper niche focused.

Right. I don’t want to find the site. That’s like. They just happen to talk about SEO or they just happen to talk about undercounter ice makers. I want to see that like insane, deep level expertise from that, that site. Like all they do is talk about undercounter ice makers. Like, and sometimes those aren’t the most authoritative sites.

Sometimes those sites aren’t, um, but they are extremely deep as far as content. And you know that they’ve hit every little nook and cranny of that, that industry. Um, and so those are where I try to find like who those are. Like it’s, I’m not looking at Huffington post. I’m not looking at for like, I’m not even looking at Amazon.

Right. Like I don’t care about any of those. I want to find that guy who’s obsessed about keyword or, you know, about undercounter ice makers. Um, so it, it is dependent on if you already have an existing site. So like if your site’s brand new and you have no keywords. Doing a, doing like a keyword gap analysis is kind of pointless because every keyword is going to be an opportunity, right?

So yeah, so, but if you do have a site that you’ve already got a little bit of traction, you’ve already ranking for some stuff in your industry, then doing a keyword gap analysis with Ahrefs or SEMrush is very smart, right? So you go and find those, uh, let’s say two to three competitors that I kind of fit into the bucket that I described.

You run them through the keyword gap and then you can see that huge gap that you have between them. Uh, between you and them right now, as I mentioned before, it’s easy to find keywords. It, anyone can do it, anyone can go into Ahrefs or whatever and you can find keywords. That’s not where the magic happens.

The magic happens in knowing what keywords to go after. So um, so for me, it’s, you know, like I mentioned, my, my strategy is always to prioritize, as I mentioned before, the, the keywords are going to produce some sort of transactional value. Um, and it’s just, it’s very, it’s super variable. Like in the case of, I don’t know, baseball cleats, like I’m going to be.

Just looking for every possible very, you know, every type of investigative idea that I could go after in relation to baseball cleats. Like if my site was, I don’t know, bestbaseballcleats. com, um, then I want to really start to build like, okay. I should probably have a list post about the best baseball cleats for, um, youth players.

Best baseball cleats for college players. Best baseball cleats for, uh, uh, men’s softball leagues. Right? Like, start to get, start to get into the different, um, ideal clients, right? Starting to think about what those look like, cause it’s always different segments. It could be for seniors, it could be for youth, it could be, it could be, you know, best blue baseball cleats.

It could be based on a certain, uh, feature. Right. So if the intent is different, we want to be building out separate assets to support the different intent. Um, and so for me, that’s where I would go is starting to think about like, what does that look like? And sometimes it’s not even using the keyword research tools.

Like that’s a good place to start. It gives you tons of ideas, but sometimes actually going into like chat, UBT for example, and just saying like, what are the, what are the topics related to best baseball cleats? Like what are the types of people that buy baseball cleats? Right. And just start to see what those, those people look like.

Cause. We’re not creating content for Google. We’re creating content for people. And I think sometimes it gets lost in the mix, right? Like our goal is to get people to buy stuff. Our goal is not to get people to just. Like we just don’t want traffic like traffic doesn’t mean anything like I want to make money These not that’s kind of the goal of this.

So So I think about the people that will be coming to my site and have I fulfilled their needs have I answered all their questions? How I have I filled in all those gaps and the answer is in most industries. You’ll never fill in every gap. It’s impossible It’s just not gonna happen. There’s too much like because when you really start getting into it Like even in the SEO space, I could probably create like a hundred pages just about keyword research that all would have different intent.

I mean, it’s, it’s never ending, right? So you know, there is no necessarily end goal to this game. It’s an ongoing game forever. I think it’s important that you figure out what’s that core thing that you’re trying to promote. Uh, whether that’s your own product, whether that’s an affiliate offer, um, the only exception I’ll say is with display, right?

Display can be a little tricky cause you’re not really like, usually it is a traffic game with display. Um, but even then, even with display, you make more money when you target good keywords, right? Cause the advertisers pay more for those keywords. Right? So, um, so anyway, we can, we can go into whatever direction you want, but that’s kind of the way I think about it.

Well, you 

Jared: know, I want to spend the last part of the interview and let me, let me make a big jump and assume we’ve now chosen all the right keywords and prioritize them all correctly. Big jump, but there’s a lot there that people can go back and deep dive into. I’ve already got a page of notes and I’m just the host.

Um, and my notes are just focused on what questions to ask you. So there’s a lot there, but let’s assume we’ve done that and move into content. Because, again, going back to what you were saying, if you’re rolling around in the dirt, what’s the dirt these days, what are you seeing, that makes for good content?

Because, I mean, you can say, and everyone does say it, Publish good content. Google wants good content. Google more and more wants good content. And, and I hear you say things, like I want to just call it out, like earlier you said, go back and update content before you make new content. I think a lot of people, to be fair, think that updating old content is harder than producing new content.

And to hear you say that, I, I just want to get your insights. What’s good content? Why is it so hard to produce and so expensive to produce? And what is moving the needle today in terms of… On the ground experience. 

Nathan: Yeah. Uh, so I love this question because, you know, I, I get it. I get this a lot, uh, in my training or in my content, I’ll, I’ll get the comments.

So someone says I create, I I’ve been creating amazing content and I’m not getting the results. And the problem is like, it’s very difficult. Number one, to judge your own content, right? Everyone thinks their content’s the best. Everyone thinks their child’s the cutest. Everyone thinks their child’s the smartest.

Um, and you know, it’s just the way we are. We’re conditioned. Okay. So, so for me, what I don’t, I don’t try to look at, look at, uh, I don’t subjectively look at my content in that regard. What I do is I think about. I look at what the market is doing with my content, okay? And for Google, it’s the same way.

Google, Google’s a very… I’m not gonna get into this, but there’s a lot of propaganda. Let’s just say that much, okay? They say a lot of things because they know it’s gonna scare people, and they know it’s gonna… Their, their, their biggest weapon is not their algorithm. Their biggest weapon is what they put out in the market and claim that they’re doing.

Because people are so knee jerk reaction to everything. Oh, Google E A T, okay, now I gotta do like all… Now, funny thing is that whole PR initiative by them, everyone now is focused on creating subject matter level content, right? Subject matter expertise. Did they program it into the algorithm? No, it’s not even in the algorithm.

It’s just, it’s just a guideline. So, but what they’ve done is they forced, they, they elevated everyone’s game just by basically scaring them. It’s the same way with helpful content, right? It’s this helpful content update. It’s the same exact thing because when you look at that, they want you to create helpful content.

Okay. How do you, how does an algorithm determine what’s helpful? That’s a very weird standards, a very vague standard to know what’s truly helpful. There’s some like what’s helpful to you. It may not be helpful to me. We could be reading the same thing and I would say, yeah, this is awesome. You’d be like, no, this is terrible.

Opinions are very variable. I mean, it’s crazy how different they are. So the way that Google though can measure what’s helpful is looking at external signals. Right. And so links to this day will continue to be what determines what’s helpful. That’s it. If a page has a lot of links, it has a lot of votes from high quality sources that are relevant in the industry, that signals to Google that that content is helpful.

It’s literally as simple as that. And if you don’t have those signals, then you’re playing, you’re going to be playing the volatility game all the time. So when an update comes, you’re going to get, you’re going to be constantly bouncing back and forth. Your traffic’s going to drop overnight. And w and what happens with authority sites during algorithm updates?

Nothing. They go up. Nothing happens to them. Usually they get better. Like they usually get more traffic. They occupy more keywords and then all the little small sites. Um, and so it’s not because they’re producing more helpful content. It’s not because they’re, you know, objectively their content is better than maybe a smaller site.

It’s just because the signals that Google uses haven’t really changed much. Right. And the signals that continue to be the most important are high quality, relevant backlinks. So not to go off on a tangent on that front, I just think it’s important though to mention like what, what variables really seem to matter longterm.

Now. Um, with that said, as far as actually creating the content, um, I, I view my content strategy using the 80 20 rule. So 80 percent of my content should be built around some type of keyword phrase, okay? Some sort of searchable phrase, 80%. The other 20 percent is, is what I would call my riskier assets.

Okay. So those 20, and it’s not risky, like as far as getting penalized, it’s more risky as far as will it be effective, right? It’s more of a marketing strategy. Yes. So, um, so one of the, in that bucket is going to be link bait. Okay. Link bait is tricky because it’s not always going to work, right? You got to put a lot of lines out there to see which one’s going to kind of pick up.

Sometimes it’s data driven stuff. Sometimes it’s free tools. Other times it’s, you know, uh, could be some sort of ego bait. Like I’m, I’m trying a lot of different, uh, content frameworks to try to see if I can get some links in. Um, and so that’s kind of most of that 20 percent bucket. The other percentage, I’d say maybe let’s say five to 10 percent will be what I would consider experimental keywords.

Uh, and so those are keywords that are, that no one is going after at this current moment, but they’re trending upward. Right. So, um, so the way to, the way to find those keywords is you can use a tool like exploding topics, which is by, uh, Brian Dean, um, which is a very, very good tool, uh, but obviously requires an investment.

Uh, if you can afford it, definitely a good idea. Uh, but the other option is actually to live in your vertical, like lit, like actually be a part of the vertical. So like being on tick talk, being on Reddit, being on Cora, uh, because what happens is Whenever we find, whenever we see data in Ahrefs or SEMrush or even Google, the Google Keyword Planner, we’re looking at, we’re looking at history that is old, that is old data.

It is not new. It’s outdated by the time we get it. Um, and so with TikTok though. So like my favorite example, okay, in 2020 when we’re all locked down, okay, there was a Tik Tok trend that was, uh, I forgot the name of it, but it was like this coffee, this weird coffee. You’d get like instant coffee and you’d make this like weird concoction.

So because I know how this works, right, um, it was going absolutely viral on Tik Tok. And I was like, all right, watch. And I was telling my wife, I’m like, watch this. I’ll go and search this. I’ll use a keyword planner, I’ll show you and she’s like, I don’t even care about this. Why are you showing me this?

But anyway, I showed her, I showed her, it had zero search volume, zero search volume in Google. That’s impossible. There’s no way that this extremely viral idea has zero search volume. So of course the websites that got ahead of that trend and they put, they put pages out, they reaped all the benefits.

Right. Because there’s no competition. It’s a trending. It’s trending upward. Now. Is it a fad? Yes. Right. You’re still good. You’re probably going to fall off the map once that once it dies down, but it’d be like the equivalent if you had already put up a chat GPT asset, right? That was the definitive guide to chat GPT.

Before ChatGPT launched, right, like you would have reaped all the rewards, okay, and so that’s why like staying, that’s why, but once again, that’s why it’s in the experimental bucket, because there’s a lot of volatility on that strategy, you can’t just rely on trend jacking as a strategy, it needs to be a small piece of the pie, but it’s still a piece, right, it’s still important, so I got, and just give you one more example, in the context of my business, okay, I just put out a video on YouTube, It was about the helpful content update.

Okay, when, when that, when that update came out, the day it came out, I was like, Oh, okay, I’m going to invest all my time now and in creating a video as soon as possible, because I know people are going to start searching for it. People are gonna start being interested in it. Um, and of course that’s not most of my content.

That’s only like 1 percent of my content, but if I see an opportunity and if you guys see an opportunity, you should jump on it fast because you are the one that will read the rewards. Whoever moves the fastest. You don’t even have to have the best content or the best video just because you move first you get all the benefit Eventually, you’ll probably get pushed off by the way Like once the once the big authority sites see that there’s volume because remember they’re looking at old data Once they see the volume like ah, let’s go after this one there.

You’re gonna get crushed Yes, that will happen, ROI. So that’s the experimental bucket That’s the way I like to think about it But I think it’s It’s so critical that every SEO asset that you create has some sort of linkable components in it. Like always thinking about what can I put in this content that’s going to make it linkable, right?

And so there are certain assets just that will never get links or don’t even deserve links. Like for example, the best baseball cleats, like a list post about best baseball cleats. It’s not a super linkable asset, right? You can make it linkable if you use a more experimental strategy where you actually go and buy all the baseball cleats and you actually test all the baseball cleats and you have like a controlled environment where you test them all.

That becomes linkable. So like… Uh, if you look at ratings, uh, or rtings. com, if you want to go and look at them, my favorite example. Okay. They do it the right way. They do it the expensive way, right? They invest in their content majorly, but they literally go and buy TVs and they put them in a controlled environment and they actually test those TVs and then they create their list post.

Here’s the best TVs based on facts, not based on. I read some stuff on an Amazon review, so, um, so that’s where things can become linkable. So technically even investigative content can be linkable, uh, because people want to reference it. Oh, Hey Joe, he actually tested those baseball cleats and here’s the reference data from when he tested those.

So for me, when I’m thinking about it, I was like, what are the little mechanisms I can add into the content that makes it just better, right? That’s all I’m trying to do. I’m just trying to make it better, more linkable, more shareable. And I’m not just thinking about how can I use chat GPT to create 5, 000 assets in 24 hours.

Like that’s not where my mind goes. I think about how can I create the, the, the absolute best key, the best page for this keyword. Um, and one important nuance on that is that you, you’re not trying to create the best page that’s ever existed, right? That’s not what you’re trying to do. You’re trying to create the best pages that’s ever existed for that keyword.

That’s it. It’s all relative. So anyway, yeah, I could talk all day about content, but yeah, that’s, that’s where my mind goes. 

Jared: Well, I think it’s a good way for us to kind of wrap things up, bring it all back. And I do hear a thread coming out of you, whether we talked about niche selection, keyword research, creating content, creating a linkable assets for link building.

And it’s just that. Um, not that it’s impossible or not that it’s not possible to do all of this in a niche that you’re not already embedded in. But it’s sure, you just keep hitting on it with everything you’re talking about. It sure seems like it’s so much easier to get a competitive advantage when it’s a niche that you are embedded in, involved in, excited about.

Um, maybe even already doing as a passion or a hobby or a career or a side hustle, um, maybe just as we wrap up, give me three or four minutes of commentary on that, uh, as I’ve kind of listened to you for the last 

Nathan: hour or so. Yeah. I mean, I think back in the day you could just kind of pick whatever niche you wanted and create a, you know, create an affiliate site and it would do fine.

I did that. Like it worked. It worked fine. Um, but I think these days just because of Google’s EAT guidelines. Because of the depth of content that you really need to beat competitors. Um, and also to attract links as well. It’s just so hard to not have some sort of at least enthusiasm about what you’re creating it around or some sort of expertise.

You can have either or. And this is why, this is why Google added the extra E, right? Because Google realized that it’s not always just about expertise. Like for example, You could take, like, let’s say fat loss, all right? How do you determine expertise for someone that can give advice about fat loss? Okay, well, you could look at credentials.

Hard credentials, like, do they have a degree in nutrition, da, da, da. You know, they have all the credentials. But what about a person who has no degree, but they’ve helped a thousand people lose 100 pounds? Who’s the expert? The guy that’s actually done it or the guy that read about it, you know, that’s where it gets tricky.

So that’s why Google added experience in there, right? Because now it can satisfy that. That person clearly has subject matter expertise. They have experience, they have first hand experience in the field, so now it’s actually legit, right? So, and you can see that through, and obviously there’s some industries where it’s like hard and fast, like credentials, right?

There’s no other option, like if you’re going to do, I don’t know, something super intense, like personal injury law, you’re going to have to be a personal injury lawyer. Like, you just, it’s, you, I don’t really know how you’re going to get around that. Um, but for a lot of, I’d say most other industries, It’s, it’s pretty open to interpretation what determines expertise.

So, um, so, but the way to get there is like, you do need to like what you’re doing just from a pure like motivation perspective. It’s so hard to work on something you’re not, you don’t even care about. Like when I was working on the undercounter ice maker site, like I hated that site. I just despised it every time I would have to get up out of 

Jared: bed in the morning to talk about the newest and latest and greatest in a ice cube formation wasn’t right 

Nathan: for you.

No, it wasn’t doing it for me. So I like it was a struggle. It took all my effort in the world. But guess what? When I had to write something about SEO, zero effort for me to do that. Zero effort for me to come on here and talk about SEO. Do I need motivation? No, I don’t need any motivation because this is what I do.

This is what I love. Um, It’s much easier to do things that you like, right? Um, so, I think if you’re trying to pick a niche, you’re trying to pick… And you also need to have a long term vision as well. Like, I think you don’t want to get it wrapped up in the idea that like, Oh, I’m going to start a niche site and I’m going to be rich in a year.

Like, just not a good perspective to, to, to build from. I think it’s better to think about, okay, I’m not just going to build a niche site. I’m going to build a business, I’m going to build a brand in this vertical and when you start to think like that, that will change the way that you approach things.

You’re not just going to be like, I’m just going to pop open chat GBT and blast this site with all this con, like you’re not going to think like that. You’re going to think more like, well, if I’m building a brand, I want to make sure that like people trust my brand and people. Um, you know, trust my content and I become a, uh, someone that people rely on for information in this vertical, right?

So it’s just a different mentality. And for me, I’ve just been slammed so many times by doing whatever’s the quickest way to do something in SEO. I’ve just played that game so much. I’m just so beyond doing that. Like I just like, I won’t even start a site. Like I could start any site in any niche at this point.

But I just don’t because I know what it takes to build a brand and it’s difficult. It’s hard. So yeah, that’s my answer accordingly. Pick carefully. 

Jared: Yes. Well, Hey Nathan, this has been fantastic. Where can people learn more about all the different things you have going on? We didn’t talk about, you have a podcast, um, obviously a course, uh, you publish a lot of content I’ve been following for many years.

Where can people kind of follow along? Give us, uh, give us the details. 

Nathan: Yeah, I mean, gotchasio. com, uh, you know, right here, obviously the best place to go. That’s basically the hub for everything that I do. Obviously I have Gotcha SEO Academy, which is… It’s a much bigger investment, but I’m actually involved in this program where I help people on a weekly basis with their campaigns and their businesses.

And then obviously on YouTube, that’s probably where I publish the most content is on YouTube. So you can just search Nathan Gotch. Um, I, I publish occasionally on social too, on Twitter and LinkedIn, but once again under Nathan Gotch. So. Yeah, that’s it. Thank you so 

Jared: much for coming on board and I think people are going to want to listen to a couple times over again.

So thanks for dropping so much knowledge there. I really appreciate 

Nathan: having you. Yeah. Super glad to do it. Thank you so much. Yeah. 

Jared: Talk soon.